You are technically correct; people can absolutely be racist against white people.
Now I’ll explain why you’re being downvoted anyway.
“Black Lives Matter” became a slogan because police disproportionately target black people. They stop and question black people at a far higher rate than is warranted by actual crimes, they arrest people at a far higher rate than white people, and they kill black people at a far higher rate than they kill black people.
The statement is very obviously not just a literal statement on the value of human life; it’s an accusation that police seem to think black lives don’t matter. “All Lives Matter” simply pretends to be ignorant of the entire background and reasoning behind the phrase.
Israeli’s have been massacring Palestinians and leveling their cities. They have inflicted orders of magnitude more suffering on Palestinians in the last years than Hamas has during its entire existence. The only way to equate the two is if you believe that Palestinian lives are worth significantly less than Israeli lives, and yes, that would be racist.
I don’t have the sociological definition of racism at my fingertips, but IIRC it includes the need for a power imbalance, which is generally why people push back when folks say that minority groups can be racist against against white people. Our entire country was (arguably still is to a large degree) set up to where there is a huge power imbalance in favor of white people.
If you just want to make the very real point that white people are victims of bigotry also sometimes, rather than get into this repetitive debate about whether there can be racism against white people, IMO you can just say “bigotry” or “racial prejudice” and carry the same message you intend to without having to have this tired debate about whether white people can experience racism.
Unless you aren’t tired of the tired debate, but I know I sure am.
Just to make things even more complicated, there can be a power imbalance at a macro level that favors group A over group B, whereas at a more micro level, there can be situations where the power balance is reversed. I’m a white kid who grew up in a barrio (long story) and I experienced that at an early age. I got the shit beaten out of me many times because my face didn’t fit, as well as being on the receving end of disparaging and sometimes threatening comments (especially when I was dating one of the girls from the neighborhood).
So I think you’re onto something with the terminological distinctions you’re making. Equating “racism” with “systemic racism” gives a lot more truth to the “white people can’t experience racism” claim. But along with systemic racism, there’s ad-hoc racism and related forms of bigotry that can run counter to the prevalent bias.
Still, if my name were Gonzalez instead of my very common Irish surname, and I applied for a university place or (even more) a job, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to be treated more negatively, even with the same qualifications. I’ve seen it happen to my friends and neighbors.
There’s a whole, long discussion to be had about intersectionality, and about the fundamental incommensurability of the many possible axes of privilege and oppression. I’m not motivated to get into that now, but undertanding it makes some otherwise counter-intuitive observations make more sense.
Because that implies racism only works from white->non-white. Which definitionally, is not true. This entire concept is itself, racist.
The actual reverse if racism would be like… Super equitable treatment of everyone, it someone. Not swapping the direction of races doing the biggoting.
People don’t care, they make up whatever they want to feel good about themselves. The definition of “racism” has no specific race, it’s like murder, it’s murder if xyz criteria are met.
If an African American doesn’t hire ANYONE based off race/skin color, it’s racism, period. Even if it’s other African Americas. Caucasians aren’t magically excluded regardless of how bad you want them to be. Typically, at least in my experience in education, most African Americans are happy with racism as long as it’s in their benifit, because they have some weird ass belief that it’s impossible for them to be racist somehow.
It isn’t at all. Your “point” is that you’re somehow unable to understand the meaning of the word racism. Look and think about the word, it’s not “Anyone but whiteism”. The skin color or whatever else doesn’t matter, racism is racism no matter who it’s against.
It’s just astounding how fucking dumb you gotta be to reply like you have to a comment chain about “all lives matter” in response to BLM, all you’ve managed to do is show everyone you’re just as stupid and ignorant as the people who say that.
But it is a thing… People can absolutely be racist against white people.
It’s not a thing. If someone hates another person based on their race, that’s racism. This idea that it only applies to hate towards black people is very much a US only issue. The rest of the world understands that racism towards any person is wrong.
Technically you could argue that “reverse racism” would be explicitly liking someone based entirely on their race, and nothing else. But even that’s a stupid way of looking at it.
would be explicitly liking someone based entirely on their race, and nothing else
That’s definitely a thing: fetishizing people because of their race or some other characteristic. I know some weebs, for example, who get deep into that groove. I also have known people who have a kink about having Black sexual partners. And I know two Black women who each like to date white guys and do roleplay with them that involves racial abuse. Both are upper middle class and highly educated. I find all of those fetishes weird, reductive and creepy. But maybe that’s just me. Others might draw their lines elsewhere.
I also know couples where the partners are from very different ethnicities, and they’re not all weird about it. For example, I didn’t get with my wife because of her ethnicity, it was about her intelligence, character and (OK, I’ll admit it) strikingly good looks. I knew nothing about her culture at the time.
I was responding under the assumption that the statement about reverse racism was saying that it’s impossible for people to be racist against white people.
The rest of the world understands that racism towards any person is wrong.
They understand that it’s just called racism, but it’s not universally seen as wrong. There are a lot of countries with significant racial prejudice, besides the US. Thinking it just doesn’t exist elsewhere is naive.
They said everywhere else thinks it’s wrong. I guess what I said technically isn’t the same, but if everyone thought it was wrong it wouldn’t exist. Regardless, my point still stands that it isn’t seen as wrong everywhere else either. There are a lot of places where it’s seen as normal, or even good.
Their point was that thinking there’s a one way directionality associated with the term between specific races is a seemingly unique US perspective. Elsewhere that directionality doesn’t exist and it’s understood that it can go any direction, even if the bigotry exists there too.
Yes, they corrected what they said, but the original comment says it’s seen as wrong everywhere, and it isn’t. I’m not going to debate this any further. I don’t know why you’re arguing with me. I agreed that it’s just called racism in my first comment. What is your goal?
Yes, it still says everyone thinks racism is wrong! I agreed it’s just called racism! I just disagreed that everyone else thinks it’s wrong. Is this incorrect?
Also, are you using an alt to downvote me and upvote yourself? There’s no way someone is following this this closely. Fucking weird for you are.
They understand that it’s just called racism, but it’s not universally seen as wrong.
That’s actually a valid point. But I was speaking in a more general sense, in that literally nowhere else in the world will you hear the phrase “reverse racism”.
And I’m not saying you’re technically wrong, but you’re “all lives matter”ing it. It’s not the topic here so you bringing it up implies that you really want it to be heard regardless of the topic at hand and it makes you sound like a racist prick.
You don’t have to be rude, they are literally using the word racism as defined by dictionaries. There are two separate definitions usually listed, one is belief in a races superiority over others, the other is the systemic bias against a racial group. Since 2020 at least it’s been common that people have used it to mean specifically only the second definition and use other terms like racial prejudice for things like prejudice against white people but it’s used that way still plenty.
When people mean the systemic part, they include the word systemic next to the word racism. You can’t just assume it’s implied and get pissed when people don’t understand your made a last mental shortcut combining two things.
I thought reverse racism was like… when you overcorrect for discrimination and end up discriminating against white people? Not just being racist against white people.
No, they actually can’t be. Because “white” is not a race.
Look up the history of that term. Most of the people who are white now would not have been 100 years ago. And still no one can agree whether hispanic means white or not.
ETA: The whole idea of race is a social construct and a fantasy with no basis in reality, much less biology. By stating that “white” is not a race, I did not mean to imply that the idea of race is legitimate.
I did not mean to imply that the idea of race is legitimate.
Yeah. Race, in general, is a fundamentally unsound way to categorize people. Humans are clinal in every single characteristic associated with race. Attempting to boil a multidimensional continuum down to a binary distinction is a fool’s errand.
Kinda. You seem to be arguing that one can’t be racist against whites because white isn’t a race. Do you think that holds that one can’t be racist against blacks because black isn’t a race?
True, but how many places are there where they both make up a significant part of the society AND that’s a prevailing enough attitude to cause them actual harm?
The point is that racism is hate because of race. People that are oppressed by a certain race hate that race because of the oppression, not the race. It’s not racism by definition.
No not full stop. That’s not an equivalent comparison at all and it really disturbs me that so many people agree with you. What an egregious oversimplification.
A crime is a crime. I’m not saying oppression gives a get out of jail free card. Hurting an innocent person is still wrong, but being afraid of an unknown person who is a member of a race that is predominantly cruel to you? Understandable. Calling out that race for bad behavior is also acceptable, wouldn’t you agree? As a member of an oppressed race you exist in a world not too dissimilar to the movie “They Live.”
How can you know who is and isn’t your ally? It’s safer to assume they aren’t.
There is a lot of nuance to this very complicated subject.
Calling out that race for bad behavior is also acceptable, wouldn’t you agree?
I’m not who you are replying to but that sounds racist and I don’t agree you should attribute bad behavior to a race. There’s better and more accurate ways to attribute bad behavior, basing it on racial identities is inherently racist in my book, and inherently misleading.
Calling out that race for bad behavior is also acceptable, wouldn’t you agree?
No, that is pure nonsense. It is not a “race” who is oppressing anybody. It is certain groups of people, usually a political and economical elite who are doing the oppressing. Conflating it with race (which is not even a real concept) is the epitome of racism and directing efforts at the wrong reasons. Oppressors love that kind of bigoted stuff, because it causes people to miss the actual factors of oppression.
Hurting an innocent person is still wrong, but being afraid of an unknown person who is a member of a race that is predominantly cruel to you? Understandable. Calling out that race for bad behavior is also acceptable, wouldn’t you agree?
No it’s not acceptable it’s just racism 101. A lot of racist white people think the exact same way about some minorities. Also systemic racism doesn’t need you to be white to keep it alive. Here in france there is a lot of racism between minorities. Following your logic it ok for them to hate each other? That’s just dumb
But it is a thing… People can absolutely be racist against white people.
You are technically correct; people can absolutely be racist against white people.
Now I’ll explain why you’re being downvoted anyway.
“Black Lives Matter” became a slogan because police disproportionately target black people. They stop and question black people at a far higher rate than is warranted by actual crimes, they arrest people at a far higher rate than white people, and they kill black people at a far higher rate than they kill black people.
The statement is very obviously not just a literal statement on the value of human life; it’s an accusation that police seem to think black lives don’t matter. “All Lives Matter” simply pretends to be ignorant of the entire background and reasoning behind the phrase.
Israeli’s have been massacring Palestinians and leveling their cities. They have inflicted orders of magnitude more suffering on Palestinians in the last years than Hamas has during its entire existence. The only way to equate the two is if you believe that Palestinian lives are worth significantly less than Israeli lives, and yes, that would be racist.
I think people assume I’m saying that white people are victims of systemic racism, which is not at all what I said.
I don’t have the sociological definition of racism at my fingertips, but IIRC it includes the need for a power imbalance, which is generally why people push back when folks say that minority groups can be racist against against white people. Our entire country was (arguably still is to a large degree) set up to where there is a huge power imbalance in favor of white people.
If you just want to make the very real point that white people are victims of bigotry also sometimes, rather than get into this repetitive debate about whether there can be racism against white people, IMO you can just say “bigotry” or “racial prejudice” and carry the same message you intend to without having to have this tired debate about whether white people can experience racism.
Unless you aren’t tired of the tired debate, but I know I sure am.
Just to make things even more complicated, there can be a power imbalance at a macro level that favors group A over group B, whereas at a more micro level, there can be situations where the power balance is reversed. I’m a white kid who grew up in a barrio (long story) and I experienced that at an early age. I got the shit beaten out of me many times because my face didn’t fit, as well as being on the receving end of disparaging and sometimes threatening comments (especially when I was dating one of the girls from the neighborhood).
So I think you’re onto something with the terminological distinctions you’re making. Equating “racism” with “systemic racism” gives a lot more truth to the “white people can’t experience racism” claim. But along with systemic racism, there’s ad-hoc racism and related forms of bigotry that can run counter to the prevalent bias.
Still, if my name were Gonzalez instead of my very common Irish surname, and I applied for a university place or (even more) a job, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to be treated more negatively, even with the same qualifications. I’ve seen it happen to my friends and neighbors.
There’s a whole, long discussion to be had about intersectionality, and about the fundamental incommensurability of the many possible axes of privilege and oppression. I’m not motivated to get into that now, but undertanding it makes some otherwise counter-intuitive observations make more sense.
No you said reverse racism is a thing
It’s not.
Because that implies racism only works from white->non-white. Which definitionally, is not true. This entire concept is itself, racist.
The actual reverse if racism would be like… Super equitable treatment of everyone, it someone. Not swapping the direction of races doing the biggoting.
I mistakenly thought they were saying that it’s impossible to be racist against white people.
This is like having a conversation about menstruation, and then men being like, “I get cuts sometimes”.
No one fucking cares, if you’re talking about white racism, you’re just being self centered.
People don’t care, they make up whatever they want to feel good about themselves. The definition of “racism” has no specific race, it’s like murder, it’s murder if xyz criteria are met.
If an African American doesn’t hire ANYONE based off race/skin color, it’s racism, period. Even if it’s other African Americas. Caucasians aren’t magically excluded regardless of how bad you want them to be. Typically, at least in my experience in education, most African Americans are happy with racism as long as it’s in their benifit, because they have some weird ass belief that it’s impossible for them to be racist somehow.
Yeah that’s just called racism. White people don’t get a special prefix when it happens to them.
That’s basically my point, though.
If that had been your point, you would never have felt it necessary to say that “reverse” racism is a thing.
It isn’t at all. Your “point” is that you’re somehow unable to understand the meaning of the word racism. Look and think about the word, it’s not “Anyone but whiteism”. The skin color or whatever else doesn’t matter, racism is racism no matter who it’s against. It’s just astounding how fucking dumb you gotta be to reply like you have to a comment chain about “all lives matter” in response to BLM, all you’ve managed to do is show everyone you’re just as stupid and ignorant as the people who say that.
It’s not a thing. If someone hates another person based on their race, that’s racism. This idea that it only applies to hate towards black people is very much a US only issue. The rest of the world understands that racism towards any person is wrong.
Technically you could argue that “reverse racism” would be explicitly liking someone based entirely on their race, and nothing else. But even that’s a stupid way of looking at it.
That’s definitely a thing: fetishizing people because of their race or some other characteristic. I know some weebs, for example, who get deep into that groove. I also have known people who have a kink about having Black sexual partners. And I know two Black women who each like to date white guys and do roleplay with them that involves racial abuse. Both are upper middle class and highly educated. I find all of those fetishes weird, reductive and creepy. But maybe that’s just me. Others might draw their lines elsewhere.
I also know couples where the partners are from very different ethnicities, and they’re not all weird about it. For example, I didn’t get with my wife because of her ethnicity, it was about her intelligence, character and (OK, I’ll admit it) strikingly good looks. I knew nothing about her culture at the time.
I know that’s a thing, but would you call that “reverse racism”? That’s the point I was trying to make, that such a term is ridiculous.
I was responding under the assumption that the statement about reverse racism was saying that it’s impossible for people to be racist against white people.
They understand that it’s just called racism, but it’s not universally seen as wrong. There are a lot of countries with significant racial prejudice, besides the US. Thinking it just doesn’t exist elsewhere is naive.
That’s not what they said.
They said everywhere else thinks it’s wrong. I guess what I said technically isn’t the same, but if everyone thought it was wrong it wouldn’t exist. Regardless, my point still stands that it isn’t seen as wrong everywhere else either. There are a lot of places where it’s seen as normal, or even good.
Their point was that thinking there’s a one way directionality associated with the term between specific races is a seemingly unique US perspective. Elsewhere that directionality doesn’t exist and it’s understood that it can go any direction, even if the bigotry exists there too.
Yes, they corrected what they said, but the original comment says it’s seen as wrong everywhere, and it isn’t. I’m not going to debate this any further. I don’t know why you’re arguing with me. I agreed that it’s just called racism in my first comment. What is your goal?
You doubling down on being wrong, and me pointing it out, is not me arguing with you. There’s no edit marker on that comment. Keep digging that hole.
Yes, it still says everyone thinks racism is wrong! I agreed it’s just called racism! I just disagreed that everyone else thinks it’s wrong. Is this incorrect?
Also, are you using an alt to downvote me and upvote yourself? There’s no way someone is following this this closely. Fucking weird for you are.
That’s actually a valid point. But I was speaking in a more general sense, in that literally nowhere else in the world will you hear the phrase “reverse racism”.
A certain small, racist faction of white South Africans also uses it, and I’ve also heard it used in England by far-right idiots.
Read the room.
The room can be wrong
you are confusing racism and prejudice, but from your doubling down, seems like you’re confused quite often.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
I’m not the one who is confused.
I’m not saying white people are victims of systemic racism, but individuals can absolutely be racist against white people because of their skin color.
And I’m not saying you’re technically wrong, but you’re “all lives matter”ing it. It’s not the topic here so you bringing it up implies that you really want it to be heard regardless of the topic at hand and it makes you sound like a racist prick.
No I’m not, I was directly responding to someone bringing it up.
“All lives mattering” it would mean I initiated the topic unprompted.
I don’t know where this bullshit incorrect take came from but it needs to stop.
Not just read the room, they are a moron.
You don’t have to be rude, they are literally using the word racism as defined by dictionaries. There are two separate definitions usually listed, one is belief in a races superiority over others, the other is the systemic bias against a racial group. Since 2020 at least it’s been common that people have used it to mean specifically only the second definition and use other terms like racial prejudice for things like prejudice against white people but it’s used that way still plenty.
When people mean the systemic part, they include the word systemic next to the word racism. You can’t just assume it’s implied and get pissed when people don’t understand your made a last mental shortcut combining two things.
I thought reverse racism was like… when you overcorrect for discrimination and end up discriminating against white people? Not just being racist against white people.
No, it’s apparently white people who think they’re being systemically discriminated against.
I incorrectly thought it was more of a way of saying that you can’t be racist against white people.
you do realize what reverse racism is right? its white people being racist against other white people.
That’s not how the racists that use that word, use it.
No, they actually can’t be. Because “white” is not a race.
Look up the history of that term. Most of the people who are white now would not have been 100 years ago. And still no one can agree whether hispanic means white or not.
ETA: The whole idea of race is a social construct and a fantasy with no basis in reality, much less biology. By stating that “white” is not a race, I did not mean to imply that the idea of race is legitimate.
Yeah. Race, in general, is a fundamentally unsound way to categorize people. Humans are clinal in every single characteristic associated with race. Attempting to boil a multidimensional continuum down to a binary distinction is a fool’s errand.
And jesus isn’t real either but christianity still exists.
Good point. Racism is real even if race is not.
My first point was too hasty.
I think the funny thing about racists is that they don’t care and it doesn’t have to be consistent.
Yeah, “white” is a race as much as anything else, which is to say that it’s such an overgeneralization as to be harmful.
‘Black’ isn’t a race either.
What’s your point? Do you really think I was asserting that “black” is a race?
Kinda. You seem to be arguing that one can’t be racist against whites because white isn’t a race. Do you think that holds that one can’t be racist against blacks because black isn’t a race?
I see your point.
True, but how many places are there where they both make up a significant part of the society AND that’s a prevailing enough attitude to cause them actual harm?
I wasn’t talking about systemic racism. I was talking about individuals being racist towards other individuals.
The point is that racism is hate because of race. People that are oppressed by a certain race hate that race because of the oppression, not the race. It’s not racism by definition.
Hating people who have nothing to do with your oppression because of their skin color is racist. Full stop.
It’s like saying men can’t be raped because women are the majority of victims.
Im not even sure women are though, rape of males is extremely underreported.
According to the yapping loudmouths of the manosphere, at least.
No not full stop. That’s not an equivalent comparison at all and it really disturbs me that so many people agree with you. What an egregious oversimplification.
A crime is a crime. I’m not saying oppression gives a get out of jail free card. Hurting an innocent person is still wrong, but being afraid of an unknown person who is a member of a race that is predominantly cruel to you? Understandable. Calling out that race for bad behavior is also acceptable, wouldn’t you agree? As a member of an oppressed race you exist in a world not too dissimilar to the movie “They Live.”
How can you know who is and isn’t your ally? It’s safer to assume they aren’t.
There is a lot of nuance to this very complicated subject.
Absolutely not because race is a complete fiction and it makes no logical sense to group people together on a fantasy trait.
Here we have ladies and gents, a perfect example of a racist that thinks he is not racist.
I’m not who you are replying to but that sounds racist and I don’t agree you should attribute bad behavior to a race. There’s better and more accurate ways to attribute bad behavior, basing it on racial identities is inherently racist in my book, and inherently misleading.
No, that is pure nonsense. It is not a “race” who is oppressing anybody. It is certain groups of people, usually a political and economical elite who are doing the oppressing. Conflating it with race (which is not even a real concept) is the epitome of racism and directing efforts at the wrong reasons. Oppressors love that kind of bigoted stuff, because it causes people to miss the actual factors of oppression.
No it’s not acceptable it’s just racism 101. A lot of racist white people think the exact same way about some minorities. Also systemic racism doesn’t need you to be white to keep it alive. Here in france there is a lot of racism between minorities. Following your logic it ok for them to hate each other? That’s just dumb